police luger markings

Thanks to everyone who has added to this excellent and informative thread. Estimated Price: $ 8,500 - $ 14,000 Price Realized: Outstanding World War II Nazi 1941 Dated Single Digit Serial Number 3y Mauser Banner Eagle/L Police Luger Semi-Automatic Pistol with Two Matching Magazines and 1941 Dated Police Holster Manufacturer: Mauser Model: P08 Type: Pistol Gauge: 9 mm Luger Barrel: 3 7/8 inch round Finish: blue Captain Ernst Roehm, future head of the SA [Sturmabteilung, a.k.a. 18: . Die neue Reichs= und die preusishe Bersassung haben bereits einige wichtige Orgnzungen ersahren: weitere Gestze sind in nachster Zeit zu erwarten. There is no doubt as to what variation of Mndungsschoner or muzzle protector was used in conjunction with the new 1920s police cleaning rod with brass stopper with, at least, one Weimar era police station as evidenced in Weimar Lugers,1993 page 183, figure 47c by J. And when new information comes out, sometimes "old" information is shown to be wrong. Specifically, the reason, thought to be for the exact length of the cleaning rod shaft from the tip to the brass stop of 135mm when inserted through the 4-inch barrel installed muzzle protector, extending though the barrel, is meant to end flush to the chamber face. (non-P08) Pistols & Holsters. pistols were rejected at the acceptance procedure it would explain that these were replaced with some pistols in the v block. Regarding the S. H.133. (non-P08) Pistols & Holsters. 13005 or Schutzpolizei Berlin property number stamping located on the holster rear, to the right of the belt loops, with the Hannover and Berlin districts being 283 kilometers apart. Either the original placement of the holster body cleaning rod pouch/sleeve entrance lip was incredibly low, with the entrance lip being 46 m/m below the holster body spine edge entrance lip, requiring the addition of a 33 m/m length leather strip, raising the entrance to within 15 m/m of the holster body spine entrance lip. Three are police. A 1914 Gustav Reinhardt Berlin example 1 and a 1915 P. Braunleder Cln example 2. Sturgess in TBLAP also states that the new police cleaning rods were issued to each police pistol, further stating in the Fig. Additionally perplexing and unclear is the reason or purpose for a stand-alone E/Mg10 Nazi Swastika stamping on a 1933 dated Robert Larsen Weimar era Police holster. As to whether any police Lugers were used in caliber 7.65 mm is uncertain, however, one example pictured in Luger Variations by Harry Jones 1959, page 291 titled: 1920 POLICE WITH CHAMBER MARKINGS with the claim that during police service the Sear Safety Luger was chambered for the 7.65 m/m cartridge. Police Lugers: German Police Lugers & their markings, 1918-1958 by Tinker. The only known publication that mentions the E/WaAJL16 stamping is found in World of Lugers, a.k.a. stands for. Interestingly, this example used the expected regulation police holster up-strap and stud closure. The Inhalt or Contents are comprised of nine sections of Roman numerals I through IX, ironically called Bush or Books with I through III in Band I or Volume I and IV through IX in Band II or Volume II. The lower of the two (brass) studs is not an original German stud. installed over the barrel sight block blade assembly as a single unit with the This is exactly what I believe happened to this holster. Ventura, CA 93006, USA.) $1,000. Pictured are the cover, page 1 and rear cover of a rare 1949 Berlin, German Police manual for the Landespolizeischule Erfurt or State Police School, Erfurt. the new police cleaning rod with brass stopper. As to whether it was used in that capacity is not known, however, does lend to the confusion if there was a muzzle protector, specifically made for the sole function to be used exclusively with the new brass stop police cleaning rod. 1014 stamped on the back side along with an Eagle/Mg10 stamping, considered by Luger collectors to be rare on holsters, particularly on Police Luger holsters. In the publication History Writ in Steel by Don Maus 2009, chapter 6, page 86, Figure 6-6 discusses and shows a similar marked, cut-back artillery holster, unfortunately, showing only the holster marking, not the holster, leaving the exact configuration of the holster unknown, thus making the subject, uniquely modified holster, the only known published example. The metal finish is in very good condition. Pictured is one such P08 police grip strap example, compared against variation 1 muzzle protector 2866, where no additional marks were added. If it is made after 1918it is a reproduction. or Leder Zuweisungs Amt (Leather Allocation Office) over a Prussian Eagle over J. Berlin. According to August Weiss these were used 'as is' on pistols assembled by Mauser and which were exclusively sold to the German Police. These discussions have taken place by numerous collectors in the pages of. the ministry's Official Directory provides clear, concise and easy-to-understand information to the police officers about their own rights and duties and how they are to deal with the daily demands of the service. Edward Tinker - Co-Author of Police Lugers & Simson Lugers - Veteran Bring Backs Vol 1-4. yes sir it the sear and magazine safety installed. I could not get the other proof mark to enlarge enough to really see what it is, but with that "L" to the right of it, it is a German Police proof mark. Translated cover of The Police Pistols, Dresden manual. A round buckle for Officers ranks and a box buckle for NCOs ranks utilizing the Freistaat Preuen eagle and are believed to have been introduced in 1921 and were utilized until 1936. If you are looking for something similarly long, RIA has a Farsi-marked Persian contract Mauser Artillery Luger with an 8-inch barrel. Remnants of the original artillery holster body up-strap attachment are visible; the cover flap keeper strap and the brass stud were removed and the hole was plugged in the cover flap and a belt buckle/strap closure, as stated above was added. Collectors tend to err toward a variation. 1933-1945: Mauser Lugers. Erfurt Luger Unit Marking. - Kommando Wuertzburg, Kraftfahr-Sonderabteilung, the police cleaning rod was used in conjunction with a Mndungsschoner or muzzle protector attached to the P.08 sight band/block, many collectors and dealers are not Since the first edition was published in February d. Zs. From the Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess collection. The finish is very good and this model has a hold open latch and stock lug. The subject holster is the third such holster identified. Pictured is one such P08 police grip strap example, compared against variation 1 muzzle protector 2866, where no additional marks were added. It will therefore be easy for all police officers who are familiar with the content of the book to find their way through the reworking without difficulty. by the German authorities from the Imperial and Weimar eras, and is an Pictured above are two books, Band I or Volume I aware or familiar with that accessory, which is understandable, as TBLAP S.B.S.I 1.7 - item 7 in the 1st Centuria within command I of the South a 4-digit 1108 believed to be a Police P.08 serial number. It is interesting that the well-known Luger dealer that sold the Sturgess cut-back LP.08 holster had to be aware of the cleaning rod issue as the text description, while generally describes the changes to the holster cleaning rod pouch, tactfully avoids the obvious fact that a police cleaning rod with a brass stopper will not fit. The lower underlined rear cover statement of both volumes translates to: Furthermore, all books required for the use of the police schools in all areas of knowledge on the most favorable conditions are to be obtained from the assortment of the next edition. links[1]='http://www.cashicollection.com'; 02-04-2013 08:55 PM by NoncomRetired. August Weiss states further that the 'Riff' lot was produced by DWM late 1927 - early 1928. A 1925 dated report of the IMKK notes noncompliance and Based on the year 1924 the holster is most likely brown. Thanks for the help. Genuine German Luger - Largest Variety of Lugers Offered. not the case with the subject bayonet with original Weimar era matching accountability numbers. In the organization of the police, disorder is of decisive importance for the regulation of the individual types of police, without which the reconstruction of this direction, which is so important for the state life, would have been a problem. Nachr. Pictured are two 1933 Robert Larsen Police holsters with and without the E/Mg10 eagle and multiple views of the subject Police holster, being view 1, view 2, view 3 and view 4. invaluable source of information about the often obscure markings found on (he Americans actually did the same thing as most American Regiments did not have a "I" Company, but skipped from "H" Company to "J" Company) Constanzo got this one completely wrong, and the marking is definitely from the late '30's not '20s, and please disregard nonsense about the building # assignments. ----------------------------------------------------------- page 10 ----------------------------------------------------------. Estimated price on these beauties run between $3,500-$25,000. Shown is an apparently cold police officer in front of a Weimar era Polizeiwache or Police Station with the final, second pattern design police holster. I agree with Pat on the PTV marking. Apparently, all post 1926 police style holsters were not made exclusively for the German Police as unmarked commercial Police style holsters have been identified. Potsdam=Eiche, im Juni 1921. The cut-back, first conversion feature of the subject police holster involved forming a regular curved, P.08 holster style, closed, stitched toe. 3 days Left DWM MODEL 1914 ARTILLERY LUGER SEMI-AUTO PISTOL. Pictured is an (officers) Upper Silesian "Landespolizei" buckle. RIA 2013 Paul Goldner RBD Halle holster, sold for $3133, formed mostly from former servicemen. Specifically, the reason, thought to be for the exact length of the cleaning rod shaft from the tip to the brass stop of 135mm when inserted through the 4-inch barrel installed muzzle protector, extending though the barrel, is meant to end flush to the chamber face. The last numbers on the line indicate the item number of the item that was Despite the fact that both Weimar Lugers and Estimated Price: $ 5,500 - $ 7,500 Price Realized: Details Scarce German 1936, Dated S/42 Code Police Luger Semi-Automatic Pistol Rig with Two Matching Magazines and 1936 Dated Holster Manufacturer: Mauser Model: P08 Type: Pistol Gauge: 9 mm Luger Barrel: 3 7/8 inch round Finish: blue Grip: walnut checkered Stock: Item Views: 9264 Since these cut back LP08 holsters, at least in the Weimar era, had no provision for a spare magazine, the police officer carries a twin magazine pouch on his belt. There are many possible combinations of Below are some other HZa manufactured holsters and Ingolstadt marked parts. The left side of the slide has a Crown/N insp proof. It was one of 1,000 purchased by the U.S. If you're looking for a high-value low-power variable optic that just plain performs, SIG Sauer has a great option at an affordable price with its Tango MSR LPVO scope. This rare leather S.K.g 715 holster by Otto Stuertz Allenstein is in excellent condition. luger1. These were finished and delivered by Mauser as stock on hand in the early '30s. The lack of relevant textbooks has often been put to the test. While lacking a rear horizontal stitch line, the holster body cavity rear panel is secured at the lower edge by the lower belt loop stitching. The IMKK, Inter-Alliierte Militaer-Kontroll-Kommission (Inter-Allied Muenchen (Munich procurement office), Wirtschaftsamt LUGER POLICE P-08 MAGAZINE. Usually when this is done another identification is added. Polizei-Praesident Berlin=The Royal Police-President Berlin. officially discontinued. In Berlin, the German Police screwed the barrels out and replaced them with 9 mm barrels. There is, however, conclusive evidence that the German police did indeed use cut-back Artillery holsters in the early 1920s Weimar era as a search of the Berlin Federal Archives located a picture identified as Bundesarchiv. Pictured is a German manufactured commercial holster, original pistol model unknown, converted to accept a P.08 Luger pistol by modifying the holster body entrance. Army, Navy, Police. Regimental Marking [Revised Edition] by Jeff Noll, P.O. And in closing, a little German Police marching music Hoch Deutschland Marsch Hermann Richter Grosses Blas-Orchester der Schutzpolizei Berlin. feared that an expanded police force would become a ready reserve for the Mge auch die zweite Uuslage jedem Polizeibeamten weiterhin ein gutter Fhrer auf dem schwierigen Gebiete des polizeilichen Missens sein. All of this happened between 1912 and 1926. Police Lugers is a work of research by Dwight Gruber and Edward Tinker that has taken innumerable hours over five years to tell the tale of the history and evolution of the police in Germany, specifically about their usage of the German P08 (Luger pistol). Based on the wooden box style of the two examples, and the identical text font size and styles, that there are more of these cleaning kits with identical contents and that they are all, most likely made by the same German manufacturer. Still, however, somewhat refutes his prior reportedly statements, five years later in Weimar Lugers 1993 on page 181, Figure 47a text caption where he dismisses the (carry) use of the police cleaning rods with cut-back artillery Luger holsters where he states that: These (police cleaning) rods probably remained in Army or police stations as the brass stop prevents them for fitting in holsters. As an example, a major Luger dealer, who occasionally offers The The only marking is the Akah company logo on the back side, between the belt loops. Opening the loading tool cover flap reveals the original brown leather. Pictured is a WW1 P08 army holster modified to a Police holster in the 1920s or possibly early 1930s by removing the angled buckle and strap closure, converting to the police type closure by adding a pull-up strap to the holster body and adding a steel stud[4] and leather keeper strip to the cover flap. Some of the Police guns are reported with DWM toggles; these do not appear in any recognizable pattern. included provisions for two spare magazines, cleaning rod, box of period ammunition and a loading tool. droop-wing eagle over WaA107 army inspection stamp located on the right side flat. This book contains English translations of the actual regulations issued Compare the above to this World War I 1917-dated DWM Artillery Luger with the more appropriate German markings. Original stitching intact. an order of the Prussian Ministry of the Interior dated April 15, 1919, to 19-130 text caption Sturgess specifically states that the cleaning rod pouch of the pictured cut-back artillery to police holster, currently of the LOB collection, was modified to carry the police cleaning rod with added brass stopper, which is inaccurate as the police brass stop cleaning rod with a seven ring wooden handle cannot be inserted past the added, upper leather cleaning rod pouch section, securing cover flap brass stud as the bell-shaped, rather large 13 m/m diameter brass stopper, permanently affixed to the much smaller 5.5 m/m diameter of the steel cleaning rod, engages the protruding internal metal retaining lip of the added cleaning rod pouch brass stud. -techn. 46 of these got executed in the years 1946-50 by firing squadrons of the Danish police. The Publisher. Many of its members (for example A very similar style of eagle can be found on Gewehr 98 rifles. What am I missing here? The Ingolstadt HZa was the only one to have a production code, I believe it was "jlj." A 108 is found in the upper right backside corner, what could be considered a Police serial marking? Goering kept them under control of the Luftwaffe Air Ministry while all other Werkschutz units were controlled by the Ordnungspolizei. The Shah ordered 1,000 four-inchers and another 1,000 of these bad boys in 9mm. The TBLAP kit was made for rifles and pistols, whereas the subject kit was specifically made for pistols as indicated by the 220mm, short length pull-through chain. Password: Register: All Albums: FAQ: Calendar: Mark Forums Read: View First Unread Thread Tools: Display Modes: 06-24-2002, 11:58 PM . Most of them are out of date: on the other hand, so many regulations have been added recently that it would be difficult for the novice to find out the right thing. by Igorak89 07 May 2016, 13:07, Post The is a 9mm, all matching police luger. The fourth is a very early 3-digit, circa 1930 production DWM/Mauser commercial/Police Luger serial number 873V. two-step attachment process, requiring 1) a threaded, slotted, circular Luger DWM 1906 Navy, 9mm, 2nd issue. wooden box sliding cover lid, which What magazine variation is proper for your Luger P.08? Furthermore, later style, purportedly Magdeburg Depot rework Mg10 Stick Wing eagle stamps have been identified on the rear frame of P08 Lugers that are much smaller than the earlier and larger Weimar eagle style E/Mg10 stampings of the 41 dated WwMg/41 and E/Mg10 P08 holsters and of the subject Police holster. 1933-1945: Mauser Lugers. Regarding the completely intact magazine safety of 4559t, very few of these police Lugers survived as nearly all of these magazine safety assemblies were deactivated by cutting off the front end of the mechanism under a decree of May 1937. had its own police buckle. Pictured is an example featured in Weimar Lugers by J Still, 1993, be a very rare, late date for a second conversion of a WW1 artillery holster to a P.08 style, police unit marked holster. There are at least two examples, as of this writing of a cut-back artillery Luger holster, where there is no doubt that a multiple conversion was done for, and specifically assigned to, and marked by the German Police. Please help me with identifying those markings. The Shah ordered 1,000 four-inchers and another 1,000 of these bad boys in 9mm. var xy=Math.floor(Math.random()*ad.length); Das geistige Rstzeug fr seine Umtsausbung muss er so vllig besitzen, das ser jederzeit das Rechte trifft. No examples noted. Thread Tools: Display Modes Eagle over 83 is the marking for the responsable acceptance office for Mauser (WaA83). The pistol is fitted with a set of checkered walnut grips. Einwohnerwehr in 1921. 2866 is pictured in two views, one with the Xs removed and the other enhanced, both with the intent of identifying the markings. new style of police holster was introduced without a holster spine attached cleaning rod sleeve, replacing it with a spare magazine pouch. We received more rescued Lugers from Canada this week! No tool pouch. The base forms of the unit marks for this police force were ammended in document.write(''). The die application was quite sloppy in some areas, an example being the loading tool pouch located inside the cover flap where the black die was applied with the cover flap closed. regulations issued in 1930, and are shown in the following table. Prussian Eagle adorned clam shell device under the grip. The is a 9mm, all matching police luger. The serial number for the pistol is 4801 with a suffix of "t" which was mentioned as one of the possibilites by Ron. There is no Police tool in the holster. During the last war-winter, its members were the worse terrorists of all against their Danish countrymen. The purpose of the added entrance leather section with a second brass stud to the cleaning rod pouch is therefore unclear, and without removing the original brass stud creates a second barrier to inserting the cleaning rod, however, there is no issue with the insertion of a navy, six ring wooden barrel handle, 5.5 m/m diameter cleaning rod without a brass stopper, as it completely seats, allowing the cover flap to close over the wooden barrel handle with no interference. They appear to fall into two categories: P08s that always were P08s and P08s that were formerly unmarked Landjgerei LP08s (many 1918 DWM LP08s) that were reworked by the PTV in 1929-30 and reissued as P08s to the Landjgerei and other police. Opinion 2: I'm convinced that this is an Air Factory Werkschutz holster. Clearly identified on the facing edge holster spine is a period artillery Luger cleaning rod pouch with brass stud and leather slit cover flap. It is identical to the 4mm conversion unit part that retains the barrel and may be one and the same. [2], The earliest dated new manufacture, second pattern regulation police holster is 1929. As a result, the young police officers are faced with new tasks, which prove to be all the more difficult since the new police not only ward off the risks of political and economic struggles, but above all are supposed to be brought back to their actual previous activities. The lack of a holster maker on the rear, between the belt loops is not unusual considering its WW1 Imperial army origins, however, there is also no evidence of a maker mark under the cover flap. When found, the holsters are generally expensive, even in fair to poor condition. A community dedicated to Lugers, Central Powers, Axis, Allied and related WW-I and WW-II pistols by their scholars, collectors, owners and enthusiasts. Example 2. Most of these went to the German Police. for WWII , Hitler ordered the production of Lugers. These cut-back LP.08 holsters were used or at least modified/converted until 1928 when a new style of police holster was introduced without a holster spine attached cleaning rod sleeve, replacing it with a spare magazine pouch. This is German WWI Naval crown m marked on the left receiver. WaA107 Hans Rmer Neu-Ulm, Donau 1936. Hardback with dust cover. ----------------------------------------------------------- page 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- This book contains English translations of the actual regulations issued by the German authorities from the Imperial and Weimar eras, and is an invaluable source of information about the often obscure markings found on German weapons and equipment until 1937 Thanks for the help. It is the Eagle/Mg10 stamping that requires explanation. The base forms of the unit marks for this police force are contained in Brief explanation of the Danish HIPO-organization (as the name is mentioned again and again): HIPO was a Danish corps, established 1944 by the German Gestapo, recruited among Danish traitors after, most of the Danish policemen on September 19th 1944 were arrested and sent to concentration camps in Germany. Pictured is another variation 1 style police S. B. Barrel proof, some 1920 Police and Double Dated Lugers. links[9]='http://www.cashicollection.com'; S.B.13.435 - Berlin unit 13 - Pistole s/n 9140e. The other marking is an inspection stamp, consisting of a crown over a 'fraktur,' or letter. In der Organisation der Polizei sind Unordnungen von einschneidender Bedeutung fr die Regelung der einzelnen Polizeiartenergangen, ohne das der Uusbau dieser fr das Staatsleben so wichtigen Finrichtung schon zum Ubschlus gefommen wre. Most observed are reworks with double date or blank chambers of DWM and ERFURT.(shown below) The eagle proof differs from recognized Police Luger eagle stamped holsters, which are usually not associated with E/WaA control numbers. Pictured is an exceptional example of one such Police officer private purchase, unmarked and unmodified Weimar era Police clamshell dress bayonet. It is not very important if the delivery of these pistols took place just before the 1st of January 1930, or just after (invoiced by Mauser).". The Germans used the letter "J" instead of "I" quite often to avoid confusion with the number "1." 5. arms of this police force were a source of comflict with the IMKK, who With his permission, I have posted it below. Bavarian State Police (Landespolizei), 1930. The 1928 Instruction for the Police of the State of Prussia, (V.f.d.P.) This holster is seldom found and is considered very desirable by collectors. Note the non-standard vertical location of added metal belt buckle and strap/keeper cover flap holster, the subject cut-back artillery LP.08 holster to P.08 holster police marked, the bottom edge of the holster body inner liner, Pictured is a WW1 P08 army holster modified to a Police holster in the 1920s, whereas other identified, non-holster Hannover markings, such as Police P08s. Polizei-Verwaltung Halle A/S.=Police Administration Halle A/S. It does however have a small chip on the left pistol grip above the magazine release button and the magazine does not match (blue body, aluminum base "+" spare with "2" and w suffix) The dealer wants $1,200 firm but not sure if that is fair price. although some examples have been modified to a single loop belt carry by rotating the Spain attempted to extend their territory to expand their control and unify the two sections. Weimar era Police cleaning rods are easily identified by their 7-ring wooden barrel type handles vs. the Imperial era artillery LP.08 and navy P.04 with their 6-ring wooden barrel type wooden handles.The use of these new style police cleaning rods, which coincidently are the last design and use of a wooden barrel handle cleaning rod for the P.08, is described by Sturgess in TBLAP, VIII, C19, pp 1331, 1332 as follows: Most were fitted with bell-shaped brass stops, soft soldered on their shafts, to give the correct length, 130 135mm approximately, for cleaning the barrel of the short P.08 when used with the Mndungsschoner (muzzle protector) which was then in police service. Regimental markings on a 1916 P08 Luger - Arms and other weapons - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum. It was Faded roman numeral ink stampings on the inside cover flap indicate Imperial army, possibly depot origins. Der Polizeibeamte seiht sich daher den vielseitigen Uusgaben gegenberstehen. Pictured is a black dyed 1933 dated Robert Larsen Berlin police holster with a Weimar era (1929-36) Sunburst police inspection stamp and P08 pistol issue number S.E.I. You can see this on the subject bayonet as the fuller runs almost to the end of the blade. S&W Walther PPK/s Review: Obsolete or Concealed Carry Gem? Holster is also marked Bahnschutz RBD Halle (S) 11-17-2022 12:57 PM by Pistol. By signing up you agree to Guns.com's (113P) DWM 1920 Police Rework Luger Pistol . The reworking ends in May 1921. Still 1993 on page 174, Fig. We got our hands on one of the original MCXs for some testing. Prussian Police (Schutzpolizei) by directive 5 April 1922. This was forbidden by the Treaty of This was the largest of the HZa's and located in Bavaria. This was removed and the hilt was shortened accordingly. and shipped to Mauser in the great move of 1930. German: Foreign Mfg. 1920-1933: DWM Lugers. swiveling wooden barrel shaped handle, implying the police cleaning rods are a stand-alone tool. Please report any errors to me. The holster conversion was similar to the below example 2 except that it is stamped on the rear with the original holstered police Luger serial number 5008, and fortunately the holster still retains the matching 5008 serial number stamped loading tool. The HZA stampings are described by Costanzo as being found on P.08 Lugers issued to security guards of military installations only, with no mention of the WaAJL16 being marked on P.08 style Police holsters. Pictured are view 1 and view 2 of this unusual marked police holster. Even though considerably outnumbered, the Riff inflicted nearly six times the number of casualties on the Spanish and French than they suffered. My question, please forive if its too absurd, is" Why weren't the Riff Contract pistols ordered from the Simson Co.?" It was subject to the command of the local Reichswehr Although, looking like a post 1926 type 2 police holster, being stamped on the rear with a P.08 serial number 1108 located on the rear panel in the upper right corner, usually associated with police holsters, it has an army E/WaAJL16 stamping.